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TOPIC: Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal.

Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083594

  • Eira
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KayyGee wrote: It needs to be made clear that the appeal succeeded only because of the political message on the cake, not that the customers was gay. The court held that nobody could be force to utter or display a political message in which they did not believe. Had the cake been a plain cake or a cake without an obviously political message, decorated with flowers or unicorns for instance, service to a gay person could not be refused. So this was a very narrow ruling that I suspect was not what the appellants had intended the outcome to be, they must still provide service to gay people, and anyone else, who request ordinary goods.


That's how I saw this case from the beginning and I think the Supreme Court decision was the correct one. I was surprised at the original court ruling, to be honest.

My understanding of the case was that this was not a wedding cake for a gay couple's wedding but a cake to be displayed at a campaign event in support of gay marriage.
If the bakers had refused to ice an actual wedding cake for a gay couple, with their names and a "Congratulations on your Marriage" type of wording, I would view that as illegal discrimination and would have fully supported the bakery being sued for discrimination.

In this case, it wasn't a gay couple ordering a wedding cake but someone asking for a cake to be iced with a slogan to support gay marriage, to be used at a campaign event. I didn't see this as personal discrimination but a refusal to further a cause the baker did not believe in.

I think it's very sad that there are people in this world who want to prevent gay couples from getting married and, if I was in the bakery business and a customer requested me to ice a cake for a protest event against gay marriage and asked for it to be iced with the words "Ban Gay Marriage", I would refuse to do it and turn their business away.
I would not expect to be sued for discrimination for this and the law has to be applied impartially, so the bakers should have the same legal right to choose as I would want to have.

When it comes to creating advertising for political messages or campaign events, whether it's on cakes, posters or leaflets, I think business owners should be able to choose whether to refuse or accept the task of creating them.
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Step by step, one goes a long way.

Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083616

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Lets suppose for the sake of an example a well dressed gentleman walks into any baker's shop and says
"I need a cake to be baked for our next week gathering of the KKK and we want it to have a couple of semi burnt crosses on it with a slogan about our movement

I hope the people who say they are for open for business and must do whatever it is that they do can take note. You may even get a thank you note from the organization with a smiling picture of you and your punter in the paper. That will be very good advertising your business .....nice. I know those folks will start writing all kinds of justification for what they say

My dad had a slogan " before you engage your tongue you need to depress the clutch in the brain.....I guess those guys drive an automatic and have no clue about clutch

Let me tell you something that you did not hear about A photographer who refused to take pictures in a wedding won the court case based on the following
"I am an artist and what I do is an art and I do that for the sake of art and I do not see any artistic value in doing what I am being asked to do " She won the case as she should have. You did not hear about it because it was not convenient for the press to report.

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Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083626

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Being Lesbian myself if I had asked for that message to be put on a cake and had been refused I would've just said ok and looked around for someone who would. To me it's no big deal.
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Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083628

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Morganman wrote: Lets suppose for the sake of an example a well dressed gentleman walks into any baker's shop and says
"I need a cake to be baked for our next week gathering of the KKK and we want it to have a couple of semi burnt crosses on it with a slogan about our movement

I hope the people who say they are for open for business and must do whatever it is that they do can take note. You may even get a thank you note from the organization with a smiling picture of you and your punter in the paper. That will be very good advertising your business .....nice. I know those folks will start writing all kinds of justification for what they say

My dad had a slogan " before you engage your tongue you need to depress the clutch in the brain.....I guess those guys drive an automatic and have no clue about clutch

Let me tell you something that you did not hear about A photographer who refused to take pictures in a wedding won the court case based on the following
"I am an artist and what I do is an art and I do that for the sake of art and I do not see any artistic value in doing what I am being asked to do " She won the case as she should have. You did not hear about it because it was not convenient for the press to report.


The Baker's case under discussion in this thread happened in Northern Ireland and was heard by the U.K. Supreme Court, so falls under the jurisdiction of U.K. Law.
I don't know what the KKK's legal status is in USA but I suspect that, if they were operating in U.K., they would probably already be proscribed as an illegal hate group. I'm no lawyer but I think it's highly unlikely that anyone would be convicted of discrimination for refusing to do business with a group that had been proscribed as a hate group by the government. In fact, you might end up on the wrong side of the law yourself if you did comply with their request.
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Step by step, one goes a long way.
Last edit: by Eira.

Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083630

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Eira wrote: I'm no lawyer but I think it's highly unlikely that anyone would be convicted of discrimination for refusing to do business with a group that had been proscribed as a hate group by the government.


Well in fact the very opposite would happen Eira, serving and promoting a hate group would probably earn you a jail term in many countries....

I do agree with Morganman though that we , indeed, do need to think thoroughly first before talking...
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Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083633

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There appears to be a few crossed wires in this thread. The bakers had served the gay man on many occasions, he was a regular to the shop. They didn't refuse to bake him a cake, they refused to ice the slogan supporting gay marriage which is at odds with their deeply held religious beliefs. If someone asked me to ice a cake with a political slogan I disagreed with then I'd refuse too. It's called freedom of thought and conscience which is lawful and fundamental to the cornerstone of our democracy.
I'm pleased that common sense and justice has prevailed.
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Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083654

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Deeply held religious views and/ or deeply held political views? Are these the fundamentals of this case?
We seem to gloss over the " gay" issue. There are those for whom homosexuality offends a"deeply held religious view", but if this case is found on the " deeply held political views" and ignores the " deeply held religious views" then I am astonished, given the free ride that religious minority practices receive in UK as against observance of the established churches' traditions and insignia.
" Support Gay Marriage"? How about a bit of support for " Heterosexual Marriage" which seems to have become unfashionable if not even despised, even though it is the backbone of our civilisation!
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Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083680

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As a result of this ruling, there are very likely to be further cases in which services are refused on the basis of beliefs held by the service providers.

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Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083681

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Clytie wrote: i never said it strengthened my stance and only mentioned it as we discussed this between us,, because that's what we do. i never said "but"
we all have a right to do what we feel is right for us and why would you want to give business to people who didn't want you. i wouldn't want to give my money to someone who had offended me.
When i was young my then husband and i wore leathers, went around on a motorbike and were part of an MC, we were all refused service in many places, what we did was took our business elsewhere to where is was wanted.
"No, if they are in business they do business with everyone, not decide who should just go somewhere else" any business can refuse service to anyone and they don't even need a reason.
I personally don't agree with them refusing to give them a service however i do respect their rights to do what they feel is right for them, at the end of the day it is them that has lost this business and probably lost other orders too because of it.


I know you didn't say 'but' - however you did do the 'my best friend is gay but... ' type of stance.

As far as illegal discrimination goes, it doesn't matter whether people want to give business to someone, it matters that the business is legally obliged to do so.
No, any business cannot refuse to give business to anyone without giving a reason.
Not where I live anyway - discrimination is illegal.

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Bakery in "gay cake" wins Supreme Court Appeal. 9 months 1 week ago #3083683

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Pi wrote:

Vegemite Kid wrote: Well, the 'they should just go somewhere else and stop making a fuss' gets used all the time to justify discrimination.

No, if they are in business they do business with everyone, not decide who should just go somewhere else.

The comparisons to Muslim or Hindu people cooking do not make sense.
A Muslim person can decide not to take a job where he has to cook bacon - what he can't decide is to cook bacon and only serve it to some people.

I am a little bit in 2 minds because of the icing a slogan thing - but people have to remember, like Kaygee said, it was a very narrow ruling for a very specific case

It wasn't Carte Blanche to discriminate against gay people.

And I can see Rain's concern that some people will take it that way - indeed, already in the thread we have declarations of I can choose not to serve anyone.
No you can't and that isn't what the ruling said.


PS my best friend is gay but..... doesn't strengthen your stance.



It was carte blanche to choose which slogans you are prepared to copy/print/ice, which would have no link to discrimination against the person asking for the message to be reproduced in any form either printed, electronically reproduced or decorated.

And yes, business owners have the right to choose who they wish not to serve provided they do not discriminate against the set few categories ie scruffy people but not exclusively scruffy gay people.


Um, yes, that is what I said - the slogan thing is different .
Dress codes are different.
Discrimination on grounds I said is illegal.

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