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TOPIC: Brexit:

Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3194977

  • Jane R
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There's not going to be a second referendum or 'Loser's vote' - and that's official, as from last night.

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Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3194990

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Jane R wrote: There's not going to be a second referendum or 'Loser's vote' - and that's official, as from last night.


They've had a vote on the 2nd referendum once, they've voted and rejected Mrs May's proposal twice already and she's looking for a third vote next week, nothing about Brexit can ever be called final.
The following user(s) said Well Said: Annette, Taner

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Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3195097

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Pats wrote:

Merseymog wrote: There should be a Second Referendum because roughly 2 million of those eligible to vote in 2016 have since passed away and roughly the same number of younger voters are now eligible, the young people are owed a say in their future. If the result is still Leave then so be it.


Pats wrote:
Younger voters were eligible to vote in 2016....many didn't bother.

The result at the time was Leave......what part of that is so difficult for some to understand?


I'm not suggesting there are no awkward questions should a second referendum be eventually called, but in the scenario where the House of commons cannot come to any agreement as to a deal the EU might accept, and neither do a majority of MPs accept a no deal Brexit it is a way forward, even though not my preferred option.

You'd prefer another referendum to the House of commons voting to revoke article 50 I'd guess?

Can I ask you another question too, would you feel Brexit had been achieved if the House of commons coalesced around staying in the customs union as their policy, eliminating all the arguments over backstops, though abandoning the right to independently arrange trade deals?

Labour's policy is pretty close to that, and you'd have thought it acceptable to the rest of the EU.

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Last edit: by grahamg.

Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3195193

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Democracy is dead.
TT
The following user(s) said Well Said: wendeey

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Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3195221

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tonytungsten wrote: Democracy is dead.
TT


Not quite I'd argue, even should a second referendum be called, and as we've seen this week our opposition party won't support it until it becomes the last resort.

Eire opposed an EU treaty in a referendum once didn't they, and it would have scuppered the whole thing because all. EU states had to ratify it, and then the people of Ireland went on to change their minds in a second referendum. Does that mean the Republic of Ireland is any less a democracy than they were because the decided to have a second referendum?


Finally, don't forget we have a "representative democracy" in the UK where we elect candidates to our parliament to use their consciences to do what they believe is in the countries interests. If we didn't have such a thing as a representative democracy then all kinds of issues where the publics view is different than those of the parliament would come into our law, such as capital punishment, which for most of my life was supported by a majority of people here. Would this be a more democratic country if we'd got capital punishment?
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Last edit: by grahamg.

Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3195260

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Pats wrote:

Merseymog wrote: There should be a Second Referendum because roughly 2 million of those eligible to vote in 2016 have since passed away and roughly the same number of younger voters are now eligible, the young people are owed a say in their future. If the result is still Leave then so be it.


Younger voters were eligible to vote in 2016....many didn't bother.

The result at the time was Leave......what part of that is so difficult for some to understand?

The younger you were the more likely you were to vote remain.

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vivamus vitae non paenitenda

Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3195346

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TwistNShout wrote:

Pats wrote:

Merseymog wrote: There should be a Second Referendum because roughly 2 million of those eligible to vote in 2016 have since passed away and roughly the same number of younger voters are now eligible, the young people are owed a say in their future. If the result is still Leave then so be it.


Younger voters were eligible to vote in 2016....many didn't bother.

The result at the time was Leave......what part of that is so difficult for some to understand?


The younger you were the more likely you were to vote remain.



A case can be made that every vote should be repeated at five minute intervals as some have reached the age of voting and some will have changed their minds or that the margin of victory is not conclusive or some will have died after voting or that there was a voting irregularity or some electoral fraud occurred or that prisoners were barred from voting or ex pats didn't have their say or the turnout wasn't enough or that people were lied to or that people didn't know what they were voting for or that the rain wasn't the right sort of electoral rain or that babes in the maternity ward didn't understand what an 'X' was or ........................ To me it all smacks of sour grapes even though I would rather that we didn't leave.

The truth is that only those eligible to vote are allowed to vote and only those votes of people who can be bothered to cast their vote count and in the UK we pretty much abide by the result and give it a go before we start thinking that it is time to try something else.
The following user(s) said Well Said: Pats, wendeey

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Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3195347

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Quote. ‘Of course, the real aim of the europhiles ever since the days of Jean Monnet is to create a European empire by stealth: ‘I have always believed that Europe would be built through crises’. Monnet thought that economic crises should be welcomed as opportunities to bring the states of Europe closer together, give up sovereignty and gradually move to a federal Europe. He wrote to a friend in 1952: ‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation’.

Anyone who thinks that the UK can ratify the disastrous Withdrawal Agreement signed on 25 November 2018, yet avoid being drawn every closer into a European super-state – controlled by unelected mandarins in Brussels who are supported by unelected judges at the European Court of Justice – is either being very naïve or completely disingenuous.




A very revealing piece written by Professor David Blake. He was commenting on Target2 which is at present propping up struggling Eurozone countries by giving them zero interest loans which never have to be repaid. Germany alone is owed more than €900 billion which it will never recover.

Chilling that something predicted in 1952 should prove so correct.

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Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3195352

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Pi wrote:

TwistNShout wrote:

Pats wrote:

Merseymog wrote: There should be a Second Referendum because roughly 2 million of those eligible to vote in 2016 have since passed away and roughly the same number of younger voters are now eligible, the young people are owed a say in their future. If the result is still Leave then so be it.


Pi wrote:
Younger voters were eligible to vote in 2016....many didn't bother.

The result at the time was Leave......what part of that is so difficult for some to understand?


The younger you were the more likely you were to vote remain.



A case can be made that every vote should be repeated at five minute intervals as some have reached the age of voting and some will have changed their minds or that the margin of victory is not conclusive or some will have died after voting or that there was a voting irregularity or some electoral fraud occurred or that prisoners were barred from voting or ex pats didn't have their say or the turnout wasn't enough or that people were lied to or that people didn't know what they were voting for or that the rain wasn't the right sort of electoral rain or that babes in the maternity ward didn't understand what an 'X' was or ........................ To me it all smacks of sour grapes even though I would rather that we didn't leave.

The truth is that only those eligible to vote are allowed to vote and only those votes of people who can be bothered to cast their vote count and in the UK we pretty much abide by the result and give it a go before we start thinking that it is time to try something else.


You could make your argument about another referendum every five minutes, but that is dealt with if a second EU membership referendum was enacted in a way that it came into force "automatically" after the vote (as was not the case with the way the legislation setting up the first referendum was enacted as we now definitively know).

I think a second referendum creates maybe too many issues of lack of trust in our leadership etc., but I don't think those arguments are insurmountable because the first referendum was not a specifically "No deal" decision (was it?).

Also if "No deal" was such a good thing, then there would be no need to try to achieve a trade agreement with the EU after we leave would there. :unsure: .

The transition deal is supposed to allow time for a trade deal to be agreed ready for when the transition ends, but why bother if it isn't necessary?

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Last edit: by grahamg.

Brexit: 2 months 1 week ago #3195535

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Sounds reasonable.
A lot like when my boss retired, the new boss had a different way of doing things, so 'that is the way we have always done it' was not an allowed reason. My suggestion, which was agreed to, was: we do things the way the old boss said until the new boss made a wanted change known.
Same thing: keep trade deals same till new deals are hammered out.

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