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TOPIC: Brexit, the General election and beyond.

Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 6 days ago #3349423

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Aida wrote:
Is Jennifer Arcuri about to give the media a kiss and tell story about Boris ?
It was pretty obvious she would pop up again. Hell hath no fury and all that.....


I think our very well liked TV presenter from Scotland Lorraine Kelly has had something to say about that lady on ITV Good Morning, following another interview with Piers Morgan and Susanna Reid. She isn't impressed with her or anything she might have to say. .

BTW there has been an hour long debate tonight between the leaders of the two main political parties, any thoughts on the participants performance?

They're saying it was approximately 50%:50% who performed best, and I think that is a fair assessment. smile.png :S .
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Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 6 days ago #3349474

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grahamg wrote: ‘You argue whether sovereignty didn't lie with the electors an election could be overturned. Well we now have perfectly legitimate processes by which individual MPs can be removed without another election, if they have behaved badly and they are disqualified. If as you say only the electorate can remove them because they are sovereign in the UK, then anyone removing them would be acting unlawfully wouldn't they?’


Actually I said nothing of the sort although it is an interesting twist......

Removing a sitting MP is a very different matter from not returning an MP immediately after an election. As I have said so many times now, once Parliament is in session and MPs have taken their seats sovereignty rests with them. They deal with their miscreants according to their own rules. However, there is a short amount of time immediately following an election wherein Parliament is not sitting and sovereignty still resides with the People. This is essential to prevent a candidate who has won a seat being replaced with another for whatever reason. As we have seen over the last three years winning a vote does not necessarily mean that you get what you voted for. While Sovereignty rests with the people it does at least ensure that the winner of an election takes their seat in Parliament.

On reflection I wonder if the meaning of ‘sovereignty’ in this context is fully understood.

Gina Miller - where shall I start? There are numerous media articles proclaiming her as a ‘figurehead of the anti-Brexit movement’. She claims that she does not wish to stop Brexit yet talks about her ‘EU rights’...... If she does not want those ‘rights’ removed then obviously she does not wish to leave the EU although her words are to the contrary.

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Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 5 days ago #3349524

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bryoney wrote: grahamg wrote: ‘You argue whether sovereignty didn't lie with the electors an election could be overturned. Well we now have perfectly legitimate processes by which individual MPs can be removed without another election, if they have behaved badly and they are disqualified. If as you say only the electorate can remove them because they are sovereign in the UK, then anyone removing them would be acting unlawfully wouldn't they?’


Actually I said nothing of the sort although it is an interesting twist......

Removing a sitting MP is a very different matter from not returning an MP immediately after an election. As I have said so many times now, once Parliament is in session and MPs have taken their seats sovereignty rests with them. They deal with their miscreants according to their own rules. However, there is a short amount of time immediately following an election wherein Parliament is not sitting and sovereignty still resides with the People. This is essential to prevent a candidate who has won a seat being replaced with another for whatever reason. As we have seen over the last three years winning a vote does not necessarily mean that you get what you voted for. While Sovereignty rests with the people it does at least ensure that the winner of an election takes their seat in Parliament.

On reflection I wonder if the meaning of ‘sovereignty’ in this context is fully understood.

Gina Miller - where shall I start? There are numerous media articles proclaiming her as a ‘figurehead of the anti-Brexit movement’. She claims that she does not wish to stop Brexit yet talks about her ‘EU rights’...... If she does not want those ‘rights’ removed then obviously she does not wish to leave the EU although her words are to the contrary.


I've been listening to the same Gina Miller as your good self haven't I, the doing all she can to encourage the anti Brexit alliance, tactical voting and the like, and you say she's claimed she isn't doing this? Her legal action was not to block Brexit, as I think we're now agreed, and that is the only sense in which she might have claimed what you feel she has done about "stopping Brexit", so could you be conflating to different issues, leading to endless misunderstanding?

Now stubbornly I refuse to believe sovereignty ever resides in the hand of us the voters, in Britain, and we are " subjects" in this country as I've yet to achieve any acknowledgement is our status, I.e. not sovereign kings at any time, or in any sense, other than the spurious extreme example I set up where the 650 MPs themselves were the only ones voting in any constituency, whilst the rest of us abstained. !

You are trying to conflate non binding referenda and general elections too. And this business of MPs being removed, and where sovereignty lies until they're replaced . In what sense does any voter in a constituency where their MP has unfortunately died, hold any sovereignty whatever. Parliament can continue to enact legislation and send the bills for royal assent, and this has happened throughout the history of our democracy. You can't claim any legislation passed when there isn't a full compliment of MPs lacks legitimacy, even though a vote in the House of Commons may turn on the decision of just one MP !

Only stubbornness is now keeping this discussion going, but as I remarked earlier we can keep going till Christmas if you like? smile.png .

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Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 5 days ago #3349582

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grahamg wrote:

bryoney wrote: grahamg wrote: ‘You argue whether sovereignty didn't lie with the electors an election could be overturned. Well we now have perfectly legitimate processes by which individual MPs can be removed without another election, if they have behaved badly and they are disqualified. If as you say only the electorate can remove them because they are sovereign in the UK, then anyone removing them would be acting unlawfully wouldn't they?’


Actually I said nothing of the sort although it is an interesting twist......

Removing a sitting MP is a very different matter from not returning an MP immediately after an election. As I have said so many times now, once Parliament is in session and MPs have taken their seats sovereignty rests with them. They deal with their miscreants according to their own rules. However, there is a short amount of time immediately following an election wherein Parliament is not sitting and sovereignty still resides with the People. This is essential to prevent a candidate who has won a seat being replaced with another for whatever reason. As we have seen over the last three years winning a vote does not necessarily mean that you get what you voted for. While Sovereignty rests with the people it does at least ensure that the winner of an election takes their seat in Parliament.

On reflection I wonder if the meaning of ‘sovereignty’ in this context is fully understood.

Gina Miller - where shall I start? There are numerous media articles proclaiming her as a ‘figurehead of the anti-Brexit movement’. She claims that she does not wish to stop Brexit yet talks about her ‘EU rights’...... If she does not want those ‘rights’ removed then obviously she does not wish to leave the EU although her words are to the contrary.


I've been listening to the same Gina Miller as your good self haven't I, the doing all she can to encourage the anti Brexit alliance, tactical voting and the like, and you say she's claimed she isn't doing this? Her legal action was not to block Brexit, as I think we're now agreed, and that is the only sense in which she might have claimed what you feel she has done about "stopping Brexit", so could you be conflating to different issues, leading to endless misunderstanding?

Now stubbornly I refuse to believe sovereignty ever resides in the hand of us the voters, in Britain, and we are " subjects" in this country as I've yet to achieve any acknowledgement is our status, I.e. not sovereign kings at any time, or in any sense, other than the spurious extreme example I set up where the 650 MPs themselves were the only ones voting in any constituency, whilst the rest of us abstained. !

You are trying to conflate non binding referenda and general elections too. And this business of MPs being removed, and where sovereignty lies until they're replaced . In what sense does any voter in a constituency where their MP has unfortunately died, hold any sovereignty whatever. Parliament can continue to enact legislation and send the bills for royal assent, and this has happened throughout the history of our democracy. You can't claim any legislation passed when there isn't a full compliment of MPs lacks legitimacy, even though a vote in the House of Commons may turn on the decision of just one MP !

Only stubbornness is now keeping this discussion going, but as I remarked earlier we can keep going till Christmas if you like? smile.png .


Brexit is for Life.....not just for Christmas :laugh: :laugh:
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Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 5 days ago #3349623

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grahamg wrote:

Aida wrote:
Is Jennifer Arcuri about to give the media a kiss and tell story about Boris ?
It was pretty obvious she would pop up again. Hell hath no fury and all that.....


I think our very well liked TV presenter from Scotland Lorraine Kelly has had something to say about that lady on ITV Good Morning, following another interview with Piers Morgan and Susanna Reid. She isn't impressed with her or anything she might have to say. .

BTW there has been an hour long debate tonight between the leaders of the two main political parties, any thoughts on the participants performance?

They're saying it was approximately 50%:50% who performed best, and I think that is a fair assessment. smile.png :S .


I thought the debate was boring and I don't blame the participants, I blame ITV. Was more like a reality show than a serious political debate. And this was the view of most callers into a radio show I listen to. The host of the call in show thought the laughter was like canned laughter, which I agree. It was all so false, it was unbelievable.

The result of the poll was 51% to Boris and 49% to Corbyn. I watched Sky News who commissioned the poll. And when YouGov gave out the results, he mumbled so fast, that you could have easily have missed it. The people who were asked were either Labour or Conservative voters, so don't think this result would have come as much as a surprise. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50472452

A snap YouGov poll suggested the public were evenly split on who had won the debate, "with most Labour voters thinking Jeremy Corbyn won, most Conservative voters thinking Boris Johnson won

There was also four other questions asked, can't remember what they were and can't find on a search. But they said Corbyn won two of them and Boris the other two. They didn't give the actual results though. And I do remember one which was Boris came out on top when asked who would make the best PM and think another was Corbyn won on the honesty stakes. Think people have short memories though as remember him denying in HoC that he called Theresa May a 'Stupid Woman' and also the train incident, when he was trying to make out that there was nowhere to sit and he was sitting on the floor, but the film showed an empty carriage.
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Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 5 days ago #3349625

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grahamg wrote: Now stubbornly I refuse to believe sovereignty ever resides in the hand of us the voters, in Britain,



In which case why are you debating it?

The facts are that the people are able to vote for the person representing their constituency and if that person subsequently ingores the wishes of the people in that constituency then the people have the ability to remove them from post by voting in somebody else at the next election. This is a limited sovereignty that should in practice provide good results, but it doesn't because the system has been subverted.

Nobody denies that this is a poor situation and the the entire political system needs very significant reform but the fact remains that the people DO have this power of selection.

We are currently in a situation where certain powers have seized control of our political system and subverted it for their own ends and abused the system. They have created political parties run by unelected forces and most of those parties are owned and controlled by the same unelected forces. All mainstream media channels are then used to promote those parties and to portray them as if they were separate competing entities to fool the electorate. In this way they have removed the choice of the people in what was a democratic system and that subversion has led to the undemocratic situation you have outlined where MPs once elected just proceed to further the agendas of the unelected forces rather than serve the will of the people who elected them.

The system has been subverted and is crooked from top to bottom.

Just look at the media circus last night. You saw the Tories, Labour, Lib Dems and Greens in a debate on TV.

Where was the air time for any independents standing in constituencies?

None whatsoever.

The Establishment have everything neatly wrapped up with this totally fake party political system and use it to maintain control of the country and the people.

Once people realise this and see it for the sham that it is, then they can start refusing to vote for LIB, LAB, CON completely and see these parties totally removed from parliament. However, if people don't have "air time" on mainstream media channels it is hard to be able to educate the electorate and show them the truth of how they have been conned for so long.

A time MUST come when this Establishment is properly challenged and the wrongs it has perpetrated are put right. We have a decent fundamental system of democracy in this country at heart, but it has been subverted and abused by Common Purpose and that very much needs to end.

We are being taken by those unelected forces into deeper "integration" with a dictatorship in the EU which will imho see the total eradication of our democractic process. The EU does not operate democracy in any real sense and thus is impossible to reform. This has become an issue for many member states but it sits particularly badly with the British people who value their freedoms and democracy.

As limited in effect our current ability to vote in elections is. . . . . it will become far worse in the EU as we will only be able to vote for European Level Parties which cover multiple member states. Thus our ability to vote for local changes in our own country will disappear. Our voices will be silenced.

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Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 5 days ago #3349644

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wendeey wrote:

grahamg wrote:

Aida wrote:
Is Jennifer Arcuri about to give the media a kiss and tell story about Boris ?
It was pretty obvious she would pop up again. Hell hath no fury and all that.....


I think our very well liked TV presenter from Scotland Lorraine Kelly has had something to say about that lady on ITV Good Morning, following another interview with Piers Morgan and Susanna Reid. She isn't impressed with her or anything she might have to say. .

BTW there has been an hour long debate tonight between the leaders of the two main political parties, any thoughts on the participants performance?

They're saying it was approximately 50%:50% who performed best, and I think that is a fair assessment. smile.png :S .


I thought the debate was boring and I don't blame the participants, I blame ITV. Was more like a reality show than a serious political debate. And this was the view of most callers into a radio show I listen to. The host of the call in show thought the laughter was like canned laughter, which I agree. It was all so false, it was unbelievable.

The result of the poll was 51% to Boris and 49% to Corbyn. I watched Sky News who commissioned the poll. And when YouGov gave out the results, he mumbled so fast, that you could have easily have missed it. The people who were asked were either Labour or Conservative voters, so don't think this result would have come as much as a surprise. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50472452

A snap YouGov poll suggested the public were evenly split on who had won the debate, "with most Labour voters thinking Jeremy Corbyn won, most Conservative voters thinking Boris Johnson won

There was also four other questions asked, can't remember what they were and can't find on a search. But they said Corbyn won two of them and Boris the other two. They didn't give the actual results though. And I do remember one which was Boris came out on top when asked who would make the best PM and think another was Corbyn won on the honesty stakes. Think people have short memories though as remember him denying in HoC that he called Theresa May a 'Stupid Woman' and also the train incident, when he was trying to make out that there was nowhere to sit and he was sitting on the floor, but the film showed an empty carriage.


Here’s the link to the YouGov Poll, with the results.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-re...eral-election-debate

I’m glad I decided to boycott the programme now - the majority of viewers polled found it frustrating to watch and only 16% found it helpful and very few thought it was authentic or detailed - and these were the views of the folk who actually thought it was worth watching in the first place!

By the way, I thought it was totally wrong of the Tories to switch their Twitter account name and profile during the Debate, to make it look like it was an unbiased Factchecker - no wonder the viewers polled consider Boris is less trustworthy than Corbyn.

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Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 5 days ago #3349665

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wendeey wrote:

grahamg wrote:

Aida wrote:
Is Jennifer Arcuri about to give the media a kiss and tell story about Boris ?
It was pretty obvious she would pop up again. Hell hath no fury and all that.....


I think our very well liked TV presenter from Scotland Lorraine Kelly has had something to say about that lady on ITV Good Morning, following another interview with Piers Morgan and Susanna Reid. She isn't impressed with her or anything she might have to say. .

BTW there has been an hour long debate tonight between the leaders of the two main political parties, any thoughts on the participants performance?

They're saying it was approximately 50%:50% who performed best, and I think that is a fair assessment. smile.png :S .


I thought the debate was boring and I don't blame the participants, I blame ITV. Was more like a reality show than a serious political debate. And this was the view of most callers into a radio show I listen to. The host of the call in show thought the laughter was like canned laughter, which I agree. It was all so false, it was unbelievable.

The result of the poll was 51% to Boris and 49% to Corbyn. I watched Sky News who commissioned the poll. And when YouGov gave out the results, he mumbled so fast, that you could have easily have missed it. The people who were asked were either Labour or Conservative voters, so don't think this result would have come as much as a surprise. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50472452

A snap YouGov poll suggested the public were evenly split on who had won the debate, "with most Labour voters thinking Jeremy Corbyn won, most Conservative voters thinking Boris Johnson won

There was also four other questions asked, can't remember what they were and can't find on a search. But they said Corbyn won two of them and Boris the other two. They didn't give the actual results though. And I do remember one which was Boris came out on top when asked who would make the best PM and think another was Corbyn won on the honesty stakes. Think people have short memories though as remember him denying in HoC that he called Theresa May a 'Stupid Woman' and also the train incident, when he was trying to make out that there was nowhere to sit and he was sitting on the floor, but the film showed an empty carriage.


On the poll, that was taken immediately after the "debate" the results where as you indicated. However, in a poll taken later by YouGov among undecided voters, Corbyn won 59 to 41, which is seen as far more significant.
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Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 5 days ago #3349671

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Eira wrote:

wendeey wrote:

grahamg wrote:

Aida wrote:
Is Jennifer Arcuri about to give the media a kiss and tell story about Boris ?
It was pretty obvious she would pop up again. Hell hath no fury and all that.....


I think our very well liked TV presenter from Scotland Lorraine Kelly has had something to say about that lady on ITV Good Morning, following another interview with Piers Morgan and Susanna Reid. She isn't impressed with her or anything she might have to say. .

BTW there has been an hour long debate tonight between the leaders of the two main political parties, any thoughts on the participants performance?

They're saying it was approximately 50%:50% who performed best, and I think that is a fair assessment. smile.png :S .


I thought the debate was boring and I don't blame the participants, I blame ITV. Was more like a reality show than a serious political debate. And this was the view of most callers into a radio show I listen to. The host of the call in show thought the laughter was like canned laughter, which I agree. It was all so false, it was unbelievable.

The result of the poll was 51% to Boris and 49% to Corbyn. I watched Sky News who commissioned the poll. And when YouGov gave out the results, he mumbled so fast, that you could have easily have missed it. The people who were asked were either Labour or Conservative voters, so don't think this result would have come as much as a surprise. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50472452

A snap YouGov poll suggested the public were evenly split on who had won the debate, "with most Labour voters thinking Jeremy Corbyn won, most Conservative voters thinking Boris Johnson won

There was also four other questions asked, can't remember what they were and can't find on a search. But they said Corbyn won two of them and Boris the other two. They didn't give the actual results though. And I do remember one which was Boris came out on top when asked who would make the best PM and think another was Corbyn won on the honesty stakes. Think people have short memories though as remember him denying in HoC that he called Theresa May a 'Stupid Woman' and also the train incident, when he was trying to make out that there was nowhere to sit and he was sitting on the floor, but the film showed an empty carriage.


Here’s the link to the YouGov Poll, with the results.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-re...eral-election-debate

I’m glad I decided to boycott the programme now - the majority of viewers polled found it frustrating to watch and only 16% found it helpful and very few thought it was authentic or detailed - and these were the views of the folk who actually thought it was worth watching in the first place!

By the way, I thought it was totally wrong of the Tories to switch their Twitter account name and profile during the Debate, to make it look like it was an unbiased Factchecker - no wonder the viewers polled consider Boris is less trustworthy than Corbyn.


Eira, the link you provided just goes to a blank page. If you can find it again, would be interested please.

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Brexit, the General election and beyond. 2 weeks 5 days ago #3349673

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KayyGee wrote:

wendeey wrote:

grahamg wrote:

Aida wrote:
Is Jennifer Arcuri about to give the media a kiss and tell story about Boris ?
It was pretty obvious she would pop up again. Hell hath no fury and all that.....


I think our very well liked TV presenter from Scotland Lorraine Kelly has had something to say about that lady on ITV Good Morning, following another interview with Piers Morgan and Susanna Reid. She isn't impressed with her or anything she might have to say. .

BTW there has been an hour long debate tonight between the leaders of the two main political parties, any thoughts on the participants performance?

They're saying it was approximately 50%:50% who performed best, and I think that is a fair assessment. smile.png :S .


I thought the debate was boring and I don't blame the participants, I blame ITV. Was more like a reality show than a serious political debate. And this was the view of most callers into a radio show I listen to. The host of the call in show thought the laughter was like canned laughter, which I agree. It was all so false, it was unbelievable.

The result of the poll was 51% to Boris and 49% to Corbyn. I watched Sky News who commissioned the poll. And when YouGov gave out the results, he mumbled so fast, that you could have easily have missed it. The people who were asked were either Labour or Conservative voters, so don't think this result would have come as much as a surprise. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50472452

A snap YouGov poll suggested the public were evenly split on who had won the debate, "with most Labour voters thinking Jeremy Corbyn won, most Conservative voters thinking Boris Johnson won

There was also four other questions asked, can't remember what they were and can't find on a search. But they said Corbyn won two of them and Boris the other two. They didn't give the actual results though. And I do remember one which was Boris came out on top when asked who would make the best PM and think another was Corbyn won on the honesty stakes. Think people have short memories though as remember him denying in HoC that he called Theresa May a 'Stupid Woman' and also the train incident, when he was trying to make out that there was nowhere to sit and he was sitting on the floor, but the film showed an empty carriage.


On the poll, that was taken immediately after the "debate" the results where as you indicated. However, in a poll taken later by YouGov among undecided voters, Corbyn won 59 to 41, which is seen as far more significant.


Can you provide a link to this please as I did hear there was another poll, but it wasn't done by YouGov, so would be interested to find out who did do it.

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